The skepticism of the spokesperson on the Discovery Chanel was well placed. It is true that in the time of King David and Goliath, chain mail or "heavy armor" such as that used during the Middle Ages had not yet been invented.
However, it is possible that this person is being overly skeptical. In 1 Samuel 17 there is no mention of "heavy armor. The Hebrew text does not contain the phrase "heavy armor. I believe that the description in 1 Samuel is consistent with the types of armor known to exist in around BC. Notice that 1 Samuel describes armor made of bronze.
If this person was correct that the use of armor was an anachronism, then presumably the text would have mentioned iron rather than bronze armor which had become standard by the fifth century BC. Mycenaean Greece became the term used to refer to this period, before Greece entered a decline period with the Late Bronze Age collapse. Kraters were typically used for mixing water and wine before serving. The soldiers wear bronze helmets. They have scale armor on their torsos.
Their shins are protected with bronze greaves. I like the way you have Goliath positioned in front of David. The scripture goes into great detail about how heavy Goliath's armor was, even heavy for a man his size. This certainly contributed to offsetting his center of gravity which David undoubtedly deduced.
The way you have Goliath positioned, one can imagine how a well thrust little projectile hitting his forehead would take advantage of his displaced center of gravity making him come tumbling down. Great work. Thanks for that Nahum. Yes, I hadn't thought about Goliath being top heavy but it does make sense. Also, if Goliath was wearing a sickle sword on his back, he would have to have fallen face down for David to have drawn Goliath's sword out of its sheath.
I also wanted to mention that the Philistines entered the 'Iron age' before the Israelites and so they had far superior weaponry. The Bible mentions Goliath's iron headed spear. The Philistines maintained a monopoly on iron technology until around the time that David became king. This did not stop the Israelites from gaining victories however, as God was with them!
Graham, just a quick comment about the use of iron. Numbers , and Deuteronomy indicate that the Israelites used iron on a regular basis. I am not saying that they used it for weapons but they were using and valueing it prior to entering the Promise Land and were familiar enough with it to recognize its use in war Joshua ff.
I also note that iron was in use before the flood as well Genesis so Noah would have known and probably used iron in building the ark. Hi Christian Thanks for that. Yes, as I mentioned in the post, they had a certain amount of captured or purchased iron weaponry and tools but apparently they didn't have the technology to forge their own. Yes, they knew all about iron as they were in awe of the iron chariots of the canaanites as you pointed out. It is likely that either Noah or one of his sons had the technology to produce iron passed down from Tubal-cain, but this doesn't seem to have directly benefitted the Israelites later in their history.
Not if my sources are correct anyway! A lot of technology that they had would have been lost. Thanks for that Deboraw. Yes, that was the reason why the Philistines wanted to keep the technology to themselves!
It's interesting how this situation has reversed. Today the enemies of Israel want the nuclear weapons technology that Israel has!
Can anyone tell me how long Goliath's spear may have been and also the size of his shield. I am trying to show this to a group of children and would like to try to be as accurate as possible. Hi Judy I'm guessing here, but I would imagine that both Goliath's shield and spear are possibly the two items of his weaponry that were made to order!
The Bible does make a point of mentioning the sheer size of the spear, and the round shields of the Philistines were not excessively large anyway, so a standard issue shield would have offered little protection to Goliath. So, I'm guessing the the spear would have been at least the same height as Goliath, 9 foot , and if you scale up the standard issue shield to Goliath proportions it might have had a diameter of around 4 feet across!
Stager stated that the Philistines were Mycenean Greeks, it tells me that the headgear of the Philistine warriors were not feathers but horsehair! The ancient Greeks revered the horse for its strength, fleetness of foot, courage, and its elegance. So their warriors out of sheer admiration tried to emulate the horse by attaching on their helmets a crest. The latter Roman soldiers carried on this great traditon until well into the beginning of the dark ages.
Bible artist writes: "Pride comes before a fall, and a literal fall in Goliath's case! Goliat was of greek origin, and those who have read the Iliad, also knows that the greeks had certain rules for fight - man against man. David clearly ignores and violates these rules, and is in my point of view a man of no honour.
Imagine that you arrange a fistfight with some one, and he does not feel comfortable with your size, and then pulls a handgun and shoot you in the head. And after that he boast about his "great" victory. That is a man of no honour, and that counts for David too. He was a coward, breaking all rules of good conduct. Graham Kennedy miss the point, because all christians are brainwashed to believe that philistines were "philistines" boorish Jens Bay.
Where did that come from? Your very words show that you are unaware of your situation. Goliath a picture of the enemy would have the Israelites' hearts fill with fear and thus defeat them, but if you are not aware of the enemy you are an open battlefield. Jens: Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier! I would like to go through the points that you make one by one if I may, starting with the Greeks code of honor when it comes to fighting.
If, as you suggest, this code involves both chivalry and sportsmanship, wouldn't Goliath have refused to fight this 17 year old boy who had neither armor nor a suitable weapon to go against Goliath with? Goliath however fully intended to crush David where he stood as verses reveal. You say that David was breaking all the rules of good conduct. How exactly was he doing that?
Secondly, you liken this battle to a fist fight in which David pulls out a gun! I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from with this!
Are you suggesting that David had a weapon but Goliath didn't!! Maybe you are suggesting that David had a weapon that was effective at a distance but Goliath did not. This is also untrue as the javelin which the Bible describes in detail was meant to be thrown. Maybe you are suggesting that David took Goliath by surprise, but verses clearly show that Goliath was ready and making the first move! Maybe you are suggesting that David's sling was hidden from Goliath, but consider the time it takes to take out the sling, place in it a stone and then swing it around to get the momentum!
A sling isn't like a gun that can be pulled out and fired! You liken David's sling to a gun. Can I suggest that you look at some historical books of weaponry from this period. If a sling was equivalent to a gun, then Goliath was sat in the equivalent of a chieftain tank! Seriously though, there isn't a sling in my weaponry reference books. Where does it say in the Bible that David boasted about killing Goliath? You say that I, along with all christians are brainwashed into thinking that all philistines were boorish, but if you had read the article above you would have read: "Because we use the word 'Philistine' to describe someone who is uncultured, we tend to think of Philistines as bearded barbarians but, as we will see shortly, this might be far from the truth!
They may well have been descendants of the more elevated Greeks! I'm trying to figure out who would benefit from this! Hej Bible Artist. Thanks for your answer. Polite and educated. Thanks for that. You ask: Should this demand for chivalry count for Goliath too. Should he refuse to fight the only 17 years old David We dont know the age of neigther David or Goliath. Maybe David is 25 and Goliath is Who knows. The Bible do not tell. What we know is, that David is old enough to be appointed king of Israel.
And I would say: David do not give Goliath the time to refuse the fight. This sling will be my weapon,. Prepare yourself, and let us meet on the battlefield in ten minutes. Then I would with no hessitation label David a hero. But David do not act like this. He hide his weapon, seems only to bear a stick, suited only to beat a dog. He comes in, apparently unarmed, find his best position, finds his sling, he utters the death sentence over Goliath, 10 words or so, and he runs 3 meter and hit the unprepared Goliath with a longrange missile.
All takes maybe 10 or 15 seconds. Where was Goliath, when David takes his position. Well, he had been there for 3 days, waiting for someone to accept the challenge. Did he carry around with his sword, shield, javelins and spear for all 3 days, or did he stick the javelins and the spear in the ground, and hang his sword and shield on it to display.
And did he then sit down on a folding chair, waiting for some israelite hero to show-up. We dont know, but we know, that both Goliath and his shieldbearer, who could have prevented the disaster from flying stones, had he been warned, both are taken by surprise. So I would say, no, David did not give Goliath the chance to refuse the fight. Then I would say, Goliath could not have refused the fight, it would not have been consideration for his possible young age, it would have been an insult to say: You are too young.
And Goliath would have been the laughingstock for both the philistine and the israelitic camps. If the king, old or young, challenge you, you must accept the challenge. Then I see, that I owe you and all christians an apology. I wrote: Graham Kennedy miss the point, because all christians are brainwashed to believe that philistines were "philistines" boorish This was certainly not what I meant to write. But I hope you understand, when writing in a foreing language, some times the logic slips.
The fingers cant follow the thoughts. I should have choosen my words with greater care. Offcause I had a point, but I cant recall exactly what I meant to write. If we search google with the two words philistine and boorish, then we find this definition in the first appearing entry: Philistine: a. A smug, ignorant, especially middle-class person who is regarded as being indifferent or antagonistic to artistic and cultural values. One who lacks knowledge in a specific area. So I hope you accept my appology, and that you agree with me, that the Bible are not kind and fair to the philistines in the picture there painted of them.
And that we can agree on, that there still exists some biblical archaeologists out there, who digs with the spade in one hand and the bible in the other, with the one purpose, to prove the Bible right.
Lawrence E. Stager certainly do not belong to this group. I have read several of his articles, and his article on the Israel stela is among the best on the subject.
I have not read the Stager-article you quote from, and I would be very happy, if you could send me a digital copy, as it — to my best knowledge — is not accessible on the BAR site for free.
Please inform us with title and publishing date. Hej again Bible Artist It is not alowed to post more than caracters in one post, so you will have two post from me today I would like to raise another question, about Samson and Micah. The article was in hebrew, but it has been reprinted twice in english Samson is a danite, and Yadin think, that danites belong to the sea peoples group, either Danuna from Adana in Cilicia or Danaoi from Greece.
There is no consensus on the origin of the danites. Samson appear — so to speak — only to associate with philistines, especially philistine women. Tree of them, but I have the feeling, that these tree are one and the same, Dalila. This Dalila is rewarded with seckels for betraying Samson to the philistines. Or is it 5 times seckel, that is not quite clear.
In the next chapter, Judge 17, we see a woman, name not mentioned, mother of Micah, she has lost her seckel. She must be Dalila, as we hear of no other woman connected with seckel, and then Micah must be the son of Samson, as no other man is mentioned in connection with Dalila. The suddenly grown up son of Samson.
This Micah, son af a philistine woman and son of a danite man, two groups from the sea peoples, builds an icon. And this icon is later stolen by passing danite warriors. Why should danites steal an icon from a danite man. Why should a sea people woman betray a sea people man, with whom she has a son to a sea people group, and why do the Bible retell this story as an Israelite legend? Have you any idea what is the true story behind all this?
Any comment? Jens: We don't know the age of Goliath but the scholars have a pretty good idea that David was It's all to do with the dates. David became king when he was 30, about 13 years after this event! Your angle on what happened is very interesting. Most of the problems that you are having however would be cleared up with a closer reading of the text. I could go through these points one by one but just try reading the story again.
It will save me a lot of typing! The dictionary definition of the word philistine does include 'uncultured' etc, but I wouldn't agree that the Bible is to blame for this. The Bible simply states that they were the enemy of God's chosen people.
No archaeologists are trying to bend archaeological evidence in an attempt to prove that the Bible is right. They don't have to! Both Jewish and Christian archaeologists will be pleased when they find things that tie into the biblical account, but why shouldn't they?
It's only proving what they already knew. Regarding your other problem with Samson there are a number of good apologetics sites on the internet that deal with questions like this. I am very limited for time and so I try to deal with questions that refer particularly to Bible illustration or a particular post.
Hope this is helpful. I tend to disagree with sevral of the points you have made.
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