If the resisting Psyker rolls higher than the result of the Psychic test on 2d6 then the power is denied. This does not count as failing the Psychic test for effects such as the Reliquary of Gathalamor. As with casting powers, Psykers are limited to the number of Deny the Witch tests specified in their profile.
The curves above show the probability of success for a contested Psyker test under a variety of conditions. The ability to re-roll values of 1 is particularly important, as it has a significant chance of improving the outcome and preventing a denial with no penalty to the Psyker. The slight increase in the purple line re-roll any dice including all 1s in the middle warp charge values can be attributed to the strategy used.
This means that in situations where the player had a low warp charge they may not necessarily re-roll any dice but still have a low value.
This opens up an interesting question; is there an optimal strategy surrounding the use of re-rolls and Psychic tests? Aside from the obvious case where one of the results is a one, are there conditions where it is preferable to re-roll one or more dice, even on a successful test, so that your overall probability of success increases?
Well we know from probability that the expected value of a d6 roll is 3. It turns out that this is indeed an optimal strategy. When the desired result is less than 8 the vast majority of warp charge values , the optimal strategy is to re-roll every die that comes up with a value of 3 or less.
This applies to scenarios were you can re-roll both dice or only one using a command point or some other ability. For target values of 8 or higher the optimal strategy is to only re-roll dice on a 1 , although the difference in probability is minimal. I also explored only re-rolling values of 1 or 2 but improvement in probability was less than re-rolling all values of 3 or less. Psychic Focus. One major limitation on the Psychic phase is the Psychic Focus rule, which limits the number of times a power can be attempted to only once per turn unless the power is Smite.
Since Psychic Focus was introduced Smite Spam has largely disappeared, but the power is still prevalent. Several factions have access to unique characters, Relics, Stratagems, or powers that have the ability to influence Psychic tests. The quintessential psyker killer, Culexus assassins are completely immune to psychic powers and subtract 2 from all Psychic tests and Deny the Witch tests from ALL Psykers, friendly or enemy.
Oddly enough they have no Stratagems related to neutralizing powers. Unlike the Culexus assassin this effect only applies to enemy Psykers. Inquisitor Karamazov and unnamed Inquisitors that are not psykers can ignore the effect of any psychic power that targets them by beating the result of the Psychic test on 2d6.
This is not a Deny the Witch test and the power still applies to other units that were targeted. Space Marines have an extensive collection of options for Psychic tests, and when properly used can be effective at shutting down opposing psykers. Both of these Successor Tactics are heavily specialized and likely less than optimal for competitive play.
All Space Marines have access to two Relics. If the rule says something like he can do a deny the witch test, then he could try to deny the psychic action. Trying to staple lawyer-tight readings onto rules written for a different edition applied to a new rule is Find a fun way forward and move on.
Seems to follow spirit and avoid edge cases. Also, meaning of German words is kinda irrelevant to discussing the rules in English, Jidmah. Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me and my opponent to ensure we are "playing by the rules".
JohnnyHell wrote: Also, meaning of German words is kinda irrelevant to discussing the rules in English, Jidmah. JohnnyHell wrote: Trying to staple lawyer-tight readings onto rules written for a different edition applied to a new rule is It might very well be intended, because otherwise factions without psykers could both pick abhor the witch and deny their psychic actions.
Jidmah wrote: It might very well be intended, because otherwise factions without psykers could both pick abhor the witch and deny their psychic actions. Jidmah wrote: JohnnyHell wrote: Also, meaning of German words is kinda irrelevant to discussing the rules in English, Jidmah. When you heat ice, it melts. So how about you provide proof that you have permission to resolve a deny the witch ability against a psychic action before claiming RAW?
So far your argument is "I am allowed to select a non-psyker because it counts as a psyker when I select it". The logical flaw of that statement should be obvious. U02dah4 wrote: JohnnyHell wrote: Trying to staple lawyer-tight readings onto rules written for a different edition applied to a new rule is Jidmah wrote: So how about you provide proof that you have permission to resolve a deny the witch ability against a psychic action before claiming RAW?
JohnnyHell wrote: U02dah4 wrote: JohnnyHell wrote: Trying to staple lawyer-tight readings onto rules written for a different edition applied to a new rule is Sunny Side Up wrote: Jidmah wrote: So how about you provide proof that you have permission to resolve a deny the witch ability against a psychic action before claiming RAW? Dakka 5. Member List. Recent Topics. Top Rated Topics. Forum Tools Forum Tools Search. Psychic Actions - Affecting them, and Denying them. Subject: Advert.
Niiru Longtime Dakkanaut UK. So it would seem it differentiates between 'psychic power' and 'psychic action'. And the shadowstone specifies psychic power. So the answer to this seems to be a no. However later in the actions description - The opposing player can then select one of their PSYKER units that is within 24" of the PSYKER unit attempting to perform the psychic action and attempt to deny that action in the same manner as if it were attempting to deny a psychic power, by passing a Deny the Witch test.
Which is Does that mean it doesn't use up one of your Deny's for that turn? Which means that using a psychic action, uses up all of a psykers powers for that turn so even a 2-cast psyker can only cast a single action, and no powers , but a single-deny enemy psyker can deny an action, and then carry on and deny a psychic power as well.
Seems unbalanced. It should be that casting a psychic action should use up a single cast, and denying the action uses up a single deny, for that turn. U02dah4 Longtime Dakkanaut Glasgow. BaconCatBug Norn Queen. Abhor the Witch is used when a psychic power is manifested, so part of step 2 and before Deny the Witch. If you also have a Psyker within 24" you could attempt to Deny the Witch after failing with Abhor the Witch, but you couldn't attempt to Deny the Witch first and then use Abhor the Witch as the correct time to use it has since passed.
Shine, 27 June - AM. Reply to quoted posts Clear. Sign In Register now! I've forgotten my password Forum Password. Remember me This is not recommended for shared computers. Sign in anonymously Don't add me to the active users list. The difference it makes will often be minor or irrelevant, but it applies to a whole phase of the game and will definitely matter in many situations.
As an Eldar player it will come up for me all the time. Moosatronic Warrior wrote: The difference it makes will often be minor or irrelevant, but it applies to a whole phase of the game and will definitely matter in many situations.
I do not agree. All psychic powers say 'if manifested choose Emphasis my own. However we can see the power is manifested before the deny step which is step 3 of the sequence. Denver, Colorado. I think farseer is correct - when you manifest the power in step 2, the powers generally tell you to pick a target.
Having said that, I kind of like the way the OP described it as being played. It seems more fluffy and more interesting in game. Targeting is part of the wording of how to resolve a power not all powers are targeted.
This has turned into a YMDC thread when it didn't need to. The confusion comes from the Psychic powers mentioning the test to cast the power but not the DtW test. The same argument you are making could be used to say that smite inflicts mortal wounds before the DtW roll lol. It turned in to one because this isn't a simple 'you are correct'. RAW you select the target once the power is manifested which happens after the psychic test and before the DtW.
I don't intend to be pedantic however I do believe it is worth pointing out that there is a counter argument and that people should be aware of that before altering their course of play. To further elucidate - from a strictly RAW stand point you can still DtW on smite even using the appropriate language. Step 3 says "A psyker can attempt to resist a psychic power that has been manifested by an enemy model Ultimately I see both sides of the coin but there is clearly a capacity to interpret this in a different way than 'choose a target after deny'.
If you'll check the edit there I've revised upon further review my thought process - the rules in this case are actually fairly cleanly stated. You may attempt to deny a manifested power - it is stated in the deny the witch step and again reference a central term - manifested. The key issue here is GW chose to use a specific phrase and term here uncommon for GW of course in that they continue to use 'manifested' - you chose a target for a power when it is manifested, you then deny a manifested power, you then resolve a manifested power.
Following the rules, as they are written, says you choose a target for a psychic power once it is manifested, not resolved. I can see both sides The issue appears to be that they use manifested for the wording in the power and in the deny step. Almost all powers consist of 2 sentences. For instance the ork power warpath says "If manifested select a friendly ork unit within 6" of the psyker.
Increase that units attack characteristic by 1 until your next psychic phase. Manifesting the power results in all of those things happening at manifestation. Part of it happens during manifestation and part during resolution it would make most sense for this to be at the period break in this case.
None of it happens until resolution IF 1. You would apply only the first part, then if deny happens the second part is negated if 3. Smite breaks 2 because the suffering of wounds happens as part of the first portion of the power and as such denying it would never work. So we are left with 1 and 3. By the wording in the rulebook I believe 1 seems the most correct interpretation. However skipping all the rolling prior to the deny speeds up the process.
Psychic powers work as follows 1. Choose a psyker and power 2. Take a test, if successful the power is manifested 3. Attempt to deny - if successful the effects are negated 4. Resolve the psychic power -finalize any attacks. IF 1 is correct for warpath 1. IF 1 is correct for smite 1. Choose psyker and smite power 2. Take test, iff successful roll number of mortal wounds suffered.
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